00:00 Ana: There’s this assumption that I’m a Big Four CPA — we’re all going to land in similar jobs. And to an extent we do have the same training and you’re perceived similarly. But everybody I think has a different unique skill set based on the clients you’re exposed to, the size of teams, how many people were you managing. So it’s the mix of all of these things and how you manage your team as well, and the type of person you are and how you manage upwards even — that I think make you a certain individual that might be a better fit with a certain company.

00:40 Joe: So Ana Garcia knows what it’s like to be sitting where you are right now because before joining Clarity, she spent four years in public accounting at KPMG doing the work, hitting milestones, and at some point starting to wonder what should come next. And that question led her somewhere that she didn’t expect — it was to the other side of the hiring process entirely. Ana’s been with Clarity for a few years now where she recruits and places finance professionals, operations professionals, technology professionals, and I think even recently an HR professional. She’s not just someone who understands your career path — she’s lived in it and she’s had to make some choices, and now she’s the one helping you figure out what to do next. Welcome Ana.

01:22 Ana: Thanks Joe. Thanks for having me on.

01:24 Joe: So when you’re talking with someone — think a finance professional that’s ready for a move, they feel stuck — what’s the thing that you find yourself saying most often that they haven’t heard before?

01:34 Ana: We always start off the conversation and I think people naturally start talking about what their next role looks like and it’s a certain title, a certain progression that they want. But when I pivot the conversation, I ask them what is it that’s working in the role and what’s not working in terms of how it also fits into your life. So there’s a point where we ask what does your current commute look like, how is that working for you, do you like being three days in office, do you prefer being more days in office — all these different additional context pieces. But I think for one, there’s some context that is beyond a title. You know, an accounting manager job can look very different in a large publicly listed company, as you and I know, than it looks in a smaller private equity-backed company. The context about the reporting structure — all of that is one thing. But then also how it plays into your life. I talk with senior accountants leaving the firm — it’s not just the nature of the work but sometimes they tell me “I’m looking for work-life balance” and they have to think about how their future roles are going to fit into their life. And I have people that I talk to that are more senior, maybe transitioning into parenthood, that might have the same question and they say “you know my current role requires a lot of traveling and I just can’t do that anymore, but I want to find work that is still fulfilling and still interesting.” So those additional bits of context — the company itself and then how it fits into your life — I think are things that people don’t bring up themselves and it’s always well-received when we start strategizing about how that makes it a fit or not.

03:08 Joe: Yeah. I also think that people don’t get asked questions where they’re asked to think and to kind of categorize experience. And I think that’s a great way to open with people. We’re dealing so often with people that are coming from almost a standard stream. And if we look at the Big Four background, I’m wondering if you have an idea of what they consistently get wrong about how they’re perceived from the outside. How the market looks at them, what a hiring manager — what do they get wrong?

03:38 Ana: The same assumption I think I had when I was at KPMG — you start off with your cohort, you become really close. And there’s this assumption that “I’m a Big Four CPA, we’re all going to land in similar jobs.” And to an extent we do have the same training and you’re perceived similarly. But everybody I think has a different unique skill set based on the clients you’re exposed to, the size of teams, how many people were you managing. Even now that I’m thinking about it, there are even certain years where there was a weird transaction that you ended up writing an accounting memo over and it was a significant transaction — but that in itself builds a certain type of technical skill set. So it’s the mix of all of these things and how you manage your team as well, and the type of person you are and how you manage upwards even — that I think make you a certain individual that might be a better fit with a certain company. Some might prefer working in those very large structured teams because that’s the sort of audits they came from. Some might prefer the two-person team because you were working in lean private enterprise environments and you prefer working in a leaner team. So it’s the combination of all of those things that make you different. And it’s not as if you’re only seen as coming from public practice and that’s it — it’s the combination of all of those.

04:57 Joe: I also think that you find yourself in moments where you’re like “I’m running from something and I definitely don’t want what I’ve done.”

05:03 Ana: That’s true as well. I had a candidate that I called one time for a job because he’d done a lot of mining. I thought “great, I have a role in mining.” And I called him and he said “I actually wanted to connect because having done that, I know what industries I don’t want to do.” And he listed them off — “these are the ones I don’t want, these are the other ones I want to explore.” So you’re right, it was completely the opposite for him of what he had seen before. He just wanted to get another variety and he wanted to move into something else.

05:30 Joe: Yeah. It’s that idea — we either want to replicate something we loved or avoid something we hated. So let’s look at — you find yourself in this strange position in this strange place called Clarity. I want you to step back. There must have been this moment or something that happened with you where maybe it’s an accumulation of data points or insights that made you start questioning the path you’re on — which is you’re going through Big Four and you’re going to stream straight into industry. So what made you question the traditional finance path and what led you here?

06:08 Ana: I started off in accounting and finance based on advice that a professor in university actually gave me. I was in the entrepreneurship program, I was his teaching assistant, I was working in a startup accelerator, and his advice was “go do something technical — you’re already learning a lot of business development and seeing how companies start here and in the work that you’re doing.” So I pivoted into accounting, I wanted to get my CPA. I picked KPMG Private Enterprise because I thought that’s still the more entrepreneurial environment. But to my surprise when I went in, I actually liked it more than I thought I was going to. The plan was to stay there for two years, get my CPA, and pivot into something that’s more entrepreneurial. I enjoyed audit when I came in. I liked being able to ask questions to the client and getting an understanding of their business. I liked when we worked in teams. I liked having people that I could coach and teach if it was a certain accounting standard we were looking over or a procedure they needed to learn for the first time. So I really enjoyed that part of the work.

I think at the two-year mark though, I realized I’m enjoying all of the people-facing interactions, the kind of intimate relationship with a client that you have in audit — because there’s all of this information that they share with you and you just get a very close perspective into what the company does, and you get really close with your team as well. And I realized at the two-year mark I’m enjoying the people side more than the number side and more than the compliance side. So it wasn’t quite the core of what accounting or audit was — on compliance and actually doing the reconciliations and the number work — that I liked. But it was the other perspective. And so when that clicked, I started looking for things where I thought “how can I still use my CPA but have it be more people-facing?” And at that time it was a colleague that reached out and originally we were talking about a job in industry, and then she ended up pitching and saying “well, everything you’re telling me you could do in recruitment, so why don’t you talk to my managing director?” And then I set up a call with Adam and she told me all about Clarity and we just kept talking and now I’m here.

08:21 Joe: So if we look back and we think about what you understood at the time and now where you are — at this moment, what did you get wrong about this job in terms of how it would actually be, the work you would do and how you need to think? How is it different than what you thought it would be?

08:44 Ana: One of the things that everybody during the interview process told me consistently — and you included — was the amount of interaction you get with the client in understanding their business and where they want to go. And within that it’s not only saying “we want a senior accountant” but it’s understanding — “okay, we want a senior accountant, but let us tell you a bit about our structure, they’re not a big team so they have to be a little bit more self-sufficient and enjoy this environment” — but you understand a bit more of strategy and where they’re coming from and where they want to go and how the talent acquisition side plays into that. As much as you guys told me about it, I didn’t realize how much exposure I would actually get to the client and the fact that I get to sit in on intake calls, on update calls, and really hear it firsthand.

And I think on the flip side with the candidates — I was told the same thing, that you’re going to get to know your candidates very personally and understand what their goals are and think through things strategically with them. What I think is really cool now being in the seat for a number of years is getting to reconnect with people that maybe six months ago or a year and a half ago said “hey, the move doesn’t work right now but this is what I’m working towards” — and then reconnecting with them a year later and hearing that now we have something that might align because it’s setting them up for where they want to go. It’s almost like — when we ask people questions where they have to think and we have to think strategically with them — the extent to which we get to do that I’m even surprised with. It’s really strategizing with people. I think it’s lost on people because they say “yeah, you’re trying to make a match” and what people don’t think deeply about is how is an effective match made?

10:36 Joe: And what is the nature of the business? How does it make money? What’s its commercial model? How does that turn into a talent strategy? How is this company executing well or badly? And as a result, where are they in this life cycle of development? And then how does the talent that we put in there help solve the problem? I just find it interesting how you’re trying to save people from making the same mistakes that you’ve seen thousands of organizations make.

11:02 Ana: That’s true.

11:03 Joe: You’re like — I can see this coming.

11:04 Ana: That’s true. I’m trying to warn you.

11:05 Joe: They’re like “well, I don’t know if that’s happening.” We’re like “it’s totally happening.” Let’s think about what the job taught you about candidates — something that you couldn’t have articulated when you were one, but you’re now on the other side of the desk. What could you not have articulated before that you know now?

11:23 Ana: I think before it relates to the candidate-recruiter relationship and what I couldn’t articulate before is really the partnership and how much we’re really rooting for you to make this move that makes sense. It only works for us if it works for you at every level. It really isn’t that we want to fill a role — it’s what makes sense for you so that it’s a role that you can stay in for a couple of years, learn, and works long term. I think when I was a candidate I had the assumption that a recruiter wanted me for that role and it wasn’t a relationship that we were going to maintain, and that they weren’t really thinking in my best interest. But I think now that I’m on this side and I get to have that relationship with candidates — one thing I hope that comes across is that we do have your best interest in mind. The placements and the matches only work if it’s truly a match and if it really does work for you.

12:22 Joe: Let’s drop some pearls of wisdom to the degree that we’re qualified. What do you think is the thing that holds people back from getting the career they want? Something that has nothing to do with their qualifications.

12:36 Ana: I think it’s the way that people approach discovering an opportunity. And I see that that curiosity grows with tenure. Because I’ve seen some people come out of the firm as a senior and they’re asking about title, compensation — those key items. But once they get a bit more tenure they start asking about those context factors that we were talking about before and getting really curious — “what are the systems, who am I reporting to, who am I working with, is it a newly created role, or what challenges did it have before if it’s not newly created and it hasn’t worked out?” So that curiosity to really dig in deep and understand the context — and have the awareness also to reflect on what has worked for you in the past and compare it to the current role. Taking that honest look at yourself — I think that makes all the difference when you’re matching and choosing your next step. That curiosity and awareness to compare it to your situation.

13:33 Joe: Okay, then take that and answer this next question. This is specifically about us as an organization. So you chose to come here — what do you think Clarity does well to help someone find that position when making a nonlinear move? Like instead of just the next logical step — “I can become a senior analyst.” What do we do well that enables people to make a nonlinear move or a leap?

14:04 Ana: You ingrain this in all of us and everybody in senior leadership does it — it’s always understand someone’s motivation. And that comes with asking questions. It can start off with what I was saying before — what’s working, what’s not working in your role? And sometimes I’ll sit down with candidates and I’ll say “I know I’m asking you to think out a long way, but five to ten years down the line, what do you see yourself in? What have you seen people go into that looks attractive or doesn’t to you?” And I think that when you frame it that way and you start getting people to think about what motivates them and what fulfills them — that’s when it starts opening those doors to saying “you know, maybe a linear career move doesn’t work for me, maybe that doesn’t fulfill me.” But I think it’s always at the forefront — we really do ask questions and have conversations that I think make people think about what motivates them. And it’s just something that people may not have at the forefront of their thought process in the moment because they haven’t been challenged that way. So I’d say the way we frame those conversations is something that we do well for those nonlinear leaps.

15:18 Joe: So I have to ask this question — what’s it like recruiting for roles that you used to hold or roles that would have been on your path?

15:27 Ana: I just have so much fun. If I’m being honest, I really enjoy the part where you get to learn about someone — it’s learning about the client but it’s learning about the candidates too and getting to know them, not only professionally but personally. But I think it’s really just fun and fulfilling to get to have that relationship with people. And there are times I even nerd out a bit — someone’s giving me an example about a memo they wrote at the firm and there is part of me that’s my background and I like discussing it. So it’s cool to have that background too and to be able to even share stories about having gone through similar things at the firm. It’s just fun — that’s just the word I’d use to describe it. I feel really happy doing it.

16:15 Joe: Okay, so let’s lightning round this one. I’m going to ask you.

16:19 Ana: Let’s do it. Let’s go.

16:21 Joe: Best piece of career advice you’ve ever received and who gave it to you?

16:26 Ana: Okay. So when I was interviewing with Clarity, it was actually our head of sales, Andrew Steele, that asked me at one point — he said “you’d probably be happy at the eight-year mark when you get to senior manager or controller. But are you going to be happy during those eight to ten years?” And it was just a question that made me think about the tradeoff of those eight to ten years. And I wasn’t forced to think about that motivation and fulfillment in that way before.

16:54 Joe: Yeah. It’s the destination versus the journey.

16:57 Ana: Exactly.

16:58 Joe: Happy I got this title, but getting here was not what I wanted along the way. Excellent advice. What is the resume mistake that you see people constantly making?

17:08 Ana: I think people forget to add company context on the resume. And by that I mean the size of the company, revenue range, if it’s private or public — and that tells us a lot about the environment that you’re coming from. So I would say add a quick company context, one concise line, and that gives a lot of context.

17:32 Joe: Okay. Give me one thing that you know now that would have changed a decision you made in your first five years.

17:39 Ana: Anything you learn, you can still use going forward. Like my CPA — I still use it. And had I known that earlier, I probably would have made the shift to recruitment a couple years earlier.

17:50 Joe: Okay. What is the most overrated career move in finance right now?

17:55 Ana: I talk to a lot of people coming out of public practice after busy season and everyone wants to go into FP&A, which I think is great. But I think there are those other company context bits that we talked about that can also be considered. So I’d say explore those first before saying that you want to go into a specific type of role immediately.

18:15 Joe: Now observation from your viewpoint — what is the candidate quality that matters more than anything that you’ve seen on paper?

18:24 Ana: I think if we go back again to that curiosity — that ability to think critically, dig in deep. People, hiring managers like candidates that can ask why and that can share their reasoning and recommendation. So I would say curiosity is probably the number one.

18:43 Joe: You know what’s hard about these things — I’m just going to comment — people will hear these things but what they don’t understand is what the behavior looks like when it’s working well. Like what does curiosity look like?

19:01 Ana: Curiosity is looking at something and trying to deconstruct it and identify the problem that is being experienced, why it’s happening — or the success. Problem or success — why is it happening, where is it occurring, what’s the impact of it? And then start peeling the layers and getting really intense about understanding it so you can figure out a model from it that can be applied to something else in the future. Because you’re learning when you’re curious.

19:28 Joe: Get consumed by it. I also like the parts of this conversation where — people think “well, I did this job” but it’s the acquisition of competencies that matter because they’re like little layers in the cake that you can build up.

19:43 Ana: They are — and leverage into something else.

19:47 Joe: So this conversation was a blast. I enjoyed it. Thank you.

19:50 Ana: Thanks Joe. This was fun.